The SAF Podcast with James Hygate, Firefly Green Fuels: Full Transcript




[00:00:00] Oscar: Hi, and welcome to The SAF Podcast. This week, we’re delighted to be joined by James Hygate, the CEO of Firefly Green Fuels, based in the UK. James is really interesting. H’e’s been looking at biofuels for a long time, including making his own biofuel refinery in his house. Now, he’s recently looked into using sewage as a feedstock for SAF production. On the episode, we discuss the benefits of sewage as a feedstock, the commercialization plans for Firefly, the recent investment by Wizz Air, as well as what makes India such an interesting prospect for SAF production. We hope you enjoy it. James, thanks so much for joining us. Just before we get into it, I just thought we’d get into your background a bit before Firefly, before Green Fuels. If you could just take me through sort of how you got involved in biofuels and sort of your background in the industry, that would be great.

[00:01:20] James Hygate: Yes, sure. No, absolutely. I guess, I suppose, even from a very young age, I’ve always had a keen interest in nature and the environment. Something that, growing up, I grew up in an area called Stroud in Gloucestershire, but it’s quite known for sort of the greeneries there. It was something I could see that would be worth protecting. I ended up going off and studying zoology at university. It’s actually at that point when I became particularly concerned about the impact of climate change. Even this was sort of mid-’90s. We seem to be relatively new, but we covered this whole thing about the climate change and the science behind it. It all looked very simple and the science was incredibly simple and fairly obvious that we had to move away from using fossil fuels.

Really, that drove me into the career that I’m in now. When I left university, I was keen to minimise my use of fossil fuels. I actually did the obvious thing, which was to build a small biorefinery in my parents’ garage [chuckles] when they weren’t there. To be fair, actually, if you know Stroud, that’s really quite normal [chuckles] in that environment.

[00:02:36] Oscar: How many biorefineries are in Stroud now though?

[00:02:39] James: Oh, there’s probably loads. There’s probably loads. In the early ’90s, there wasn’t many. In fact, I think ours was probably the only one. It was really from a desire to move away from using fossil fuels myself. Actually, that evolved and morphed into green fuels. Roll on 20 odd years later, we’ve supplied waste cooking oil to biodiesel technology pretty much everywhere across the planet. That was the, I suppose, the background that got me into it. It was driven from the want to do something beneficial for the environment. SAF, we were probably looking at SAF at quite an early stage as well because you could start to see the emergence of electric vehicles in 2007, 2008, which made perfect sense for the road transport, but you could actually see that the challenge would be in aviation.

We’ve actually been looking around sustainable aviation fuels for about 15 years now, but trying to find routes that would work. There’s a lot of the challenges in biofuels abroad, but there are simple things that you need to address are is the feedstock there, is it truly green, is it truly a waste material. That led us into the work we’ve been doing for the last few years around Firefly and now into Firefly as a proper company going to commercialize this new route.

[00:04:14] Oscar: You’re looking at sewage as a feedstock and using hydrothermal liquefaction as the refining process. Do you just want to take us through what hydrothermal liquefaction is and how it works?

[00:04:28] James: Yes, absolutely. Sure. This is a completely new route to SAF. The reason we’re looking at hydrothermal liquefaction is when you look at a lot of biological materials and a lot of biological wastes, they’re full of water. Intuitively you think, “Well, we’re going to have to put loads of energy into drying this, and to then, for example, go for a gasification process in FT or whatever.” Actually, hydrothermal liquefaction is quite interesting. Water, it’s everywhere, but it’s a strange substance. As it becomes a solid, it becomes lighter, it can float on the top. You can dissolve all sorts of things in it. It’s such a small molecule. It doesn’t really make sense it’s water. It’s a weird substance anyway, but it does start to act almost in a magical fashion when you put it under high temperatures and high pressures.

With those sorts of environments, it becomes quite reactive. It acts more as an aggressive chemical breaking down materials that are in there. It’s a very good way to break down the complex macromolecules having lignocellulosic materials and other biological materials. In hydrothermal liquefaction, we use the water to break down the material that’s there. The results of that are you end up with the outputs are a bio-crude, which is quite similar to a fossil crude, and a biochar. A biochar has the nutrients, et cetera, in the material that’s come through, but also has a fixed carbon content to it. If you think about it, it’s not too dissimilar to what happens, in geological terms, in the Earth’s crust, biological material, over millions of years, high pressures, moderate temperatures, then it breaks down into no fossil crude and coal. It’s just that what we’re doing is a process, rather than spending millions and millions of years taking place, it happens in seconds.

[00:06:30] Oscar: You just basically got the cheat code to how geology works really.

[00:06:36] James: Yes, I’ve said it before, but it’s quite an elegant and magical process. It is more complicated than a pressure cooker, but it’s almost like a pressure cooker. It’s a very good way to use the water for your advantage. That provides an efficient process to make these materials. The nice thing with these materials are, especially with the bio-crude, it’s a crude oil. It’s basically a crude oil. You’ve got 100 years of knowledge and experience in refining that can go into that. When you start looking at the investment case and the bankability of this, you can then talk to capitalist licensors and say, “Hey, I’ve got this Firefly crude, can you provide robust guarantees to sit around a refinery to be on the process of what we’re going to get out of it?” That’s something that can be done.

It’s quite unusual, I think. The good thing with sewage is it’s a plentiful waste, it’s everywhere. We’re all contributing to the supply every day. Actually, we take it at the very end of the wastewater treatment process. Although it’s a waste, it’s incredibly consistent. That, again, is very unusual from a waste material. For us, having looked at and worked in the biofuels industry for 20-odd years, it’s suddenly that the challenge areas that we found around feedstock seem to disappear with this process. Yes, it is exciting. It’s the sort of thing that really is getting us out of bed every day to make this happen.

[00:08:10] Oscar: I think it’s quoted that there’s about 57 million tonnes of sewage in the UK, roughly.

[00:08:19] James: Yes.

[00:08:22] Oscar: Obviously, HEFA process is the most sort of commercialized and the most widely available method of making SAF at the moment. How much SAF could you create from 57 million tonnes of sewage? How big is the scalability of this as [crosstalk]

[00:08:42] James: Sure. It’s worth remembering there’s 57 million tonnes of sewage. The vast majority of that is water. That’s what goes into the wastewater treatment system. What comes out of the wastewater treatment system is a product called biosolids. This is almost a soil-like material that is currently spread on the land. Of that, there’s about 8.5 million tonnes in the UK. Looking at converting that into fuel, that 8.5 million tonnes still has a relatively high water content, but you could produce around about 600,000 tonnes of sustainable fuels, of which about 270,000 tonnes of that would be SAF. If you look at the 10% mandate in the UK and based on say last year’s jet fuel consumption, this route alone could meet half that mandate. It is pretty significant.

UK uses an awful lot of jet fuel. When you start looking at other countries, it’s significantly more that can be produced. Yes, we’re very excited about the potential from this route because it is a true waste. It’s a material that’s there that there is nothing really useful happening with it at the moment.

[00:10:07] Oscar: Looking towards your commercialization plans, what’s your model that you’re working towards? Are you looking to own-operate staff refineries or are you going to license out technology to people or give them, as you mentioned, the refined products that then the refining stuff– What’s your future business model looking like?

[00:10:31] James: Sure. We’ve looked at this quite carefully because, and this is where a lot of the work we’ve done today is around actually making sure whatever business models we do in the overall financial model for it is as bankable as it possibly can be. Big plus point at the start of it is we’ve got a pretty low-value material that’s going into it, which has a knock-on effect. The fuel is consistent. There’s loads of it. When we look at this, this is something that can happen anywhere. There is sewage everywhere on the planet. Our aim would be to be able to maximize the impact by doing this everywhere we possibly can.

Looking at our business model, the plan would be to have effectively a licensing model. Firefly would effectively provide a license to project companies operating the plants of which Firefly would also have a stake in. In the UK, the first facility we’ve mapped out and plans would take sludge from 3 of the 11 utilities. We’re engaged with all utilities at the moment. There’s a lot of interest. We think there’s probably potential for three of those facilities in the UK. Each one of those facilities would be able to process around about 100,000 tonnes of bio-crude. Then you get about 100,000 tonnes of fuels at the end of it, of which, sort of 45% of that’s SAF. Again, that’s just looking at the UK. When you start looking at elsewhere in the world, the potential is just phenomenal.

[00:12:08] Oscar: What’s your timeline for looking at commercializing on those UK-based products?

[00:12:13] James: At the moment, the plan is to have our first-of-a-kind commercial plant in operation probably in 2029. That’s it. It’s not going to happen tomorrow because they’re scared that we’ve got to do and we’ve got to get going. There are plans to be able to get it in operation before the end of the decade. We think that’s quite realistic. The fuel, because this is a completely new route to SAF, we actually have to have the fuel qualified first of all. That’s the process that we’re going through at the moment. All the indications are that the end product is so close to a fossil jet, it looks likely that it should be able to go through a qualification process without too much trouble.

From there, we have to build a demonstration facility to demonstrate the HDL plant part of the process. Looking at the hydro trees in part, that really is oil and gas stuff. We’ve now got confident with other licensors that we’re using, and they were confident that they can go straight to a commercial scale plant and provide the guarantees that we would need to finance that. Yes, 2028, 2029, if we can make it sooner, we will.

[00:13:25] Oscar: Is that something that is quite appealing of this is a pathway if you’ve got the treatment processes coming from oil and gas, that sort of element of technology risk is massively mitigated by that because obviously, it’s a big concern from investors about the new nature of a lot of the SAF technologies coming through? Is that a big bonus to what you guys are looking to do?

[00:13:49] James: Yes, absolutely. Of course, there are technical challenges in our route and in other routes. The real challenges are actually getting these things built. That’s why it’s taken us such a long time to come up with something that we believe, “Well, wow, this really does work.” Having a business model that stands up and works, having a feedstock that’s available. The feedstock we’re using, biosolids, that’s currently spread on the land in the UK. That’s likely to be banned in the near future. The utilities are looking for an outlet for this material. It is something that’s there. It’s not like we’re taking that from somewhere else. It is super duper– it’s as consistent as waste material as it possibly can be. That’s one big thing.

We know that we know the material’s there, we know where it’s available down to every kilo because it’s completely regulated by Ofwat. Then when you look at the downstream side, it is basically a small refinery. The hydrothermal liquefaction part of it, it’s an emerging technology. This is something that is being used– There’s a plant, for example, for processing plastics, where it’s being used in a few applications. There is some scale-up that needs to happen with it, but it’s not scary, complicated technology with lots and lots of process steps. We’re comfortable that when we have the demonstration part of the HTL bill here in the UK to show the sludge being made into bio-crude. That’s the last piece of the puzzle to get the whole lot put together to unlock your financing for these projects.

[00:15:35] Oscar: You mentioned the feedstock regulation and Ofwat regulating things pretty tightly. Is that something you want to see grow across the SAF industry and biofuels? Because it’s a discussion that comes up a lot about where feedstock comes from. You have a lot of debates about palm oil being used in HEFA refineries. This close regulation of feedstock, something you’d like to see talked about more and more earnest develop a bit?

[00:16:10] James: I think it has to be. We’re all out here trying to solve a really big problem. In solving that problem, you do not want to be causing other problems. It’s clear that whatever process you do should be as sustainable as possible. The challenge is having something that’s as sustainable as possible, but also bankable. With clever chemistry, you can turn pretty much anything into anything if you want to. Whether that’s ever going to be commercially viable or not is a difficulty. That, again, the thing that’s really attracting us about this is this feedstocks everywhere. It’s very difficult to say, “Oh, no, this is a bad use for sewage sludge.” Actually, it isn’t because there isn’t really another beneficial use for it. It’s just a big load of biogenic carbon that we can turn into jet fuel and other fuels in a way.

[00:17:17] Oscar: [chuckles] You say feedstocks are everywhere. I think everyone will believe you. I don’t think there’s any question about feedstock availability for this. Does that mean that policy frameworks have more influence in making a decision for where you might produce? Because, obviously, there are a lot of people discussing about feedstocks during their assessments from other feedstocks for certain pathways are available in certain locations. If this feedstocks everywhere, surely policy and policies like the IRA in America and so on, they have more weight in incentivizing you to go and produce there as opposed to somewhere where there isn’t so much incentivization.

[00:18:04] James: Yes, it is certainly driven by policy, but again, because of the material we’re looking at, it’s from both sides. The wastewater industry globally is typically looking at how to deal with these materials. You’ve got drivers from that side as well as the SAF usage. The products of the process are bio-crude, which is like about a third of your dry-weight material in. Well, two-thirds of material coming in is a biochar. That biochar potentially has significant value as a fertilizer. It’s got all the nutrients, et cetera, that’s in the sewage, also in sequestering carbon. We are certainly driven by policy, but we’re not completely beholden to it. The business model that we developed, it needs to be incentivized in one way or another, but it looks quite strong anyway, especially if you can get values from these other materials.

We’re keen to build the first facility in the UK. We’re here, which is one thing. We also have a fairly solid offtake agreement, which is another thing we’ve put a lot of work into over the last year, which would be ideal supply in the UK or Europe. You’re right, the IRA in the US is a really compelling reason to build a plant there. It really is. You look at it and think, “Wow, from a financing point of view, having that underwriting your facility, it de-risks it massively. Clearly, this can happen in the US and can happen in the US at a larger scale. We’re keen to get the first plant here. It’s maybe the second one to be in the US.


[00:20:02] Oscar: We talk to a lot of producers and a lot of them get frustrated at how long and drawn out policy discussions can be. I know in the UK they’re looking at implementation in 2025 placed down the line. Is that something that frustrates you?

[00:20:26] James: Generally, as an entrepreneur, I’m impatient. We’d like to see this happen tomorrow. You’d like to see policy aligned with it. You think, flipping out, “There’s such a massive issue here. Why can’t everyone pull their fingers out and make this happen?” Yes, there is some frustration for it, but what we’re talking about policy in the UK, with the blend mandate and having the support mechanism aligned with– It’s similar to the renewable transfer fuel obligation, which is something we are used to because it’s the industry we’ve worked in and makes it quite compelling and makes sense, especially for a process route that looks pretty profitable.

From that side, all these things are frustrating because they take a long time, but what’s coming out of it is quite good. It would be good to see something similar to the IRA here. I don’t think that can happen, unfortunately. From the saving of the fuel, we are going to have better policies within the EU and Europe than the US.  If you can get your first facility funded here, it’s a better place to be doing it. You’ve got to look past that. You’ve got say, “This is something we want to do everywhere. Do you know what? Let’s get it done here. Let’s utilize the support that’s there to make it happen here, but definitely can do it everywhere else in the world as quickly as we can afterwards.”

[00:22:04] Oscar: There is stuff going on in the UK. Recently they did the Advanced Fuels Fund. Just announced a second window of grants that went out. Green Fuels received the Green Skies investment [crosstalk]

[00:22:18] James: Green Fuels, Green Skies. Yes.

[00:22:20] Oscar: Received that investment from the department of transport. How important was that in the early stages looking in Firefly’s development? Was that critical?

[00:22:30] James: Yes, it was incredibly important. I think this is really good. Having grant funding for these emerging technologies– There isn’t going to be one solution. This is going to be many, many, many solutions. We’ve all got to win. All of these things have got to happen. Actually, the Green Fuels, Green Skies grant that we received was incredibly useful for supplementing our own investment into this. We’ve put quite a lot of time, money into developing stuff. We were lucky to have an existing business that enabled us to do so. Having this grant funding allowed us to optimize the process, build strong relationships with our EPC contractors.

We work with Petrofac. Also, almost more importantly, it enabled us to build a very, very strong business model of how this would be commercialized moving forward and to have something as bankable as possible and build together this offtake, et cetera. When you look at it, the return on investment to the UK taxpayer has been pretty good to date. I think we got £2 million worth of grant funding. That resulted, in part, a £5 million inward investment from Wizz Air Hungary. An offtake agreement, which is– We actually managed to build a floor pricing to soft take agreement. It is bankable as far as it can be. It’s for 525,000 tonnes, of a value of, it’s going to be upwards of £750 million. This is a good use of taxpayers money.

When you then start looking at other levels of government support, having something that can help underwrite the first-for-kind plants is really good. There will always be a point where you will bump up against the commercial reality. Is the material there, is this actually going to be a viable business? You’ve got to know that it is to actually get through. This grant funding gets you past those stage gates that would otherwise be difficult and costly for you to get through and hopefully prevents losing money in large-scale projects that may not work down the line. For us, it was fantastic, and I don’t think we would be in the position we are today if it wasn’t for that money.

[00:24:57] Oscar: You mentioned your Wizz Air investment earlier this year. How did that come about?

[00:25:03] James: It was great really. We ended up talking to Wizz Air primarily about an offtake. Wizz Air were on our radar and they’re, obviously, very fast-growing, ultra-low-cost airline. They’re also per passenger, technically per CO2 emissions, the greenest airline on the planet. They are a good partner for us moving forward. We met with them in regards to looking at an offtake for the fuel. We found that there was a real meeting of minds not only for this first project but for the potential growth of the business. Quite shortly afterwards, it then turned into actually we’re quite interested and invested in this venture and supporting you for the next ages. It’s been a really, really positive experience.

We’ve got a fantastic director on our board from Wizz who is very good at looking at the strategic vision for the company as well. Certainly, the investment we’ve got is helping us get through. It’s basically there to get us through the qualification process, which is what we are using it for at the moment. It’s doing its job, but the offtake is big and it’s a very robust offtake agreement. It isn’t just like an MOU or, “If you make it, we’ll take your fuel.” Actually, it is somewhat binding. It does have floor prices. It has these things in there to make it as useful as we can.

It’s worth noting we’ve been working with one of the very large investment banks from the start with all of this to make sure anything we do provides comfort and support for when we have to get the very, very large sums of money to build these plants. I think that’s key to be doing that from the very, very early stage with any of these ventures because that’s where it’s going to live or die.

[00:26:54] Oscar: It’s interesting you mentioned the robustness of offtake agreements. That’s really interesting. Do you think that, in a way, is potentially in the long term going to be something more important than the investment in a sense? That’s what a lot of investors are looking at in terms of signaling that there is strong demand. When you come to get that big investment, do you think that’s going to be the big driver?

[00:27:26] James: I think it is. It isn’t for all of our fuel, it is for a percentage from the first facility. We wanted to do that. We wanted to make it big enough that it was useful to go and say, “Hey, do you know what if we make this stuff, there’s someone who’s going to buy it, but not so big that we weren’t able to supply the rest of fuel?” I think the reality is SAF is going to be in very, very short supply for the foreseeable future. Having this offtake, yes, it’s good. The value that sits behind that, is it worth more the investment? It depends on the stage of business. Certainly, it’s going to be worth more down the line when the fuel is quantified. Actually, we need the investment to get the fuel qualified, so it was [crosstalk]

[00:28:12] Oscar: [crosstalk]

[00:28:13] James: Exactly. Both go hand in hand. It was something we did spend a lot of time with our lawyers on both sides. This was a very collaborative process to come up with something that worked really well for both parties. I think that’s what we’ve got. We’re very, very happy with what we put in place with this and can see how we could replicate this in other locations. For example, this is good for the UK and certainly good for the first plant, but we might want to be looking at something in the US, maybe something in Japan, maybe something elsewhere with other airlines in the future.

[00:29:00] Oscar: It’s interesting you stressed it’s not for all the fuel production the offtake because you look at LanzaJet’s Project Speedbird, 100% of that stuff’s going to British Airways. They’re quite certain that that’s going to be the case. Are you pursuing other offtake agreements for the rest of the fuel? Do you think having multiple airlines signing offtake agreements from the same plants are a benefit rather than just having one for the whole supply or–?

[00:29:33] James: I think there swings roundabouts. In our case, having multiple offtake agreements almost as a backup, yes, potentially are good. The evidence would be where this becomes bankable. Generally, the business model we’ve got looks great. It looks like this is going to be a very good way to produce SAF at a realistic price. That comes down to the feedstock being not worth very much money. We are building in a price for feedstock in here, small, but currently, the utilities do get paid a very small amount of money from farmers to get this put on the field. Realistically, you want to be offering more than that to make sure you can secure as much of it as possible.

I think, for us, yes, we are going to be looking for offtakes. If we don’t have to, it’s better to be able to sell some on the open market because the reality is this is going to be in short supply. However you look at it, what is the value of your SAF? The SAF is the value of the fossil fuel plus whatever carbon penalty is on top of that. You go to Europe, is there a ceiling on that? I’m not sure. If you can get your plant built and maximize the value of the products that you’re producing, that’s something you should be doing as long as the airline is getting a benefit from it and saving over other routes or other options for offsetting their carbon.

[00:31:13] Oscar: That’s so interesting that you’re– I think you’re slightly different in the sense that you’re saving some for the open market as well. I think lots of people are so using offtakes as a tool to get finance. In a sense, they’re offtaking all the fuel that they’re predicting to be produced and using that as leverage to either get more investment from the airlines or from investment banks as well as demand indicators. I think it’s interesting that you’ve got your business model without 100% offtake agreement is so strong that you don’t have to worry about that and you can provide your time a bit more with that.

[00:31:57] James: I think, potentially, hey, look, things may change but as it stands, I do like the idea that there should be something that’s available for the open market on here. It’s interesting almost to see how that works. That’s how it works with other biofuel projects and other ones that we’ve been involved with where, yes, you may have an offtake for a proportion of it, but there will also be a proportion that will go onto the open market. That’s potentially where you can win more, you may lose more. In this market, unless something quite dramatic happens over the next few years, there is not going to be enough SAF to meet the demand. The upside looks better than the downside to me.

[00:32:42] Oscar: I want to pivot slightly now because I think we’ve done a lot onto your process and [crosstalk], which is fascinating. You also spend a lot of time in India.

[00:32:52] James: Yes.

[00:32:53] Oscar: Awful lot of time. You go there a lot. I just wonder what your thoughts are in terms of India and SAF because I think it’s such a huge potential market that you don’t see so much noise coming out of it at the moment. I just want to know what you’re doing going over there, what you think of India and SAF, et cetera.

[00:33:17] James: Actually, why do I go to India? India, for many reasons, it’s a truly wonderful place to go in general. You go there and it’s just amazing to see how this fast-paced economy is evolving overtime. You turn up, you feel alive. It’s like you always get a buzz when you go to India. It’s a great place to be. With my Green Fuels hat on, we’re also establishing a number of waste cooking oil to buy diesel plants across the country to supply road transport and the first one’s built about to be launched. That’s why I was there last week and it’ll be a number of those that are going. It’s a great potential from that side of the business as well.

That’s providing fuel to go into a blend for road use. When you look at aviation, you’re absolutely right. There is, especially with the route that we’re looking at, 1.4 billion people. That’s quite a lot of sewage that’s there.

[00:34:12] Oscar: I don’t really want to talk about [crosstalk]

[00:34:15] James: Believe me, it’s a lot when you look at the infrastructure that’s going in place. Focusing on Mumbai, Mumbai is currently establishing seven large wastewater treatment works to bring that water treatment up to the same standards we see in the UK. There will be vast quantities of biosolids coming out at the end of this process. When we looked at it and said, “Okay, let’s work this out.” It’s quite easy to model how much SAF you can make with our process. The average person basically produces between 20 and 25 kilos of biosolids per year. Go for the process, blah, blah, blah. That works out at about four liters of SAF. It’s standard. We all digest food the same way and things. It’s quite easy to model and work out how much we can produce.

You start looking at that and you look at what the usage would be, say, at Mumbai International Airport. We’re like, “Wow, 25 million people in Mumbai, this usage at the airport, if we could convert all of that sludge down the line into the into bio-crude to then produce Bionaphtha and SAF, that SAF, it looks like it should be able to contribute to 80% of the jet fuel usage of the airport. Not SAF usage. The jet fuel usage of the airport because of that high concentration of people there.” For us, we think, “This is somewhere where we should be doing this.” These are projects that are going to be happening in maybe eight or nine years’ time. What’s it going to look like? What’s the industry going to look like then?

Are there going to be mandates and incentives in India and these other– Yes, there probably will be. Actually, you should be planning for the future. Anyway, that’s why we’re there. Plus, the food’s great, people are amazing, and it’s just a great place to go to.

[00:36:19] Oscar: I can’t get over the 80% of jet fuel usage.

[00:36:22] James: Yes, mad.

[00:36:24] Oscar: That’s incredible and that’s amazing.

[00:36:31] James: This is all theoretical because you probably won’t capture all the biosolids, et cetera, that are out there. You look at this route and you look at it from 30,000 feet as a global supply of SAF. Well, with the world’s population, and bearing in mind, the vast majority don’t fly, but each person is effectively producing four liters a year of SAF, looking at the global availability of sewage, there would be potential to meet a global 10% SAF mandate through this route.

[00:37:13] Oscar: How long until you fly over there with your Firefly hat on, as it were?

[00:37:18] James: [laughs] To be fair, I was wearing that one a bit last week as well. We had a few meetings about it.

[00:37:25] Oscar: You just [unintelligible 00:37:26] between the two hats constantly. You just bring both everywhere.

[00:37:30] James: Pretty much. Actually, in this case, yes, it’s just mind-blowing, the potential, just because of the population density around the cities, but also the speed of change and the speed of progress in India. It’s amazing. It’s an amazing place to spend time.

[00:37:50] Oscar: Amazing. I think that’s everything. Thanks so much, James. That was amazing.

[00:37:53] James: No, it’s cool. Thanks, Oscar.

[00:37:56] Alasdair: Wow, you made it to the end. Thank you so much. You clearly are interested in sustainable aviation fuel and how it’s reshaping aviation. If you like the podcast, you may also be interested in attending SAF Investor London. It’s on February the 27th and 28th 2024 bringing together the whole ecosystem to find capital to change aviation. If you’d like more details, please check out SAF Investor. Thanks so much for listening. Bye.


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